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Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday January 29th, 2006 17:48 |
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Happiness: i've deliberately not contributed to this thread, in order to have a FREE debate on the merits... I think however if people had been keeping up with my current thoughts they would already know where my thoughts lie on this issue...
In any case can I just advised that I will only run this consultation for a short while longer before closing it..I will then summerise the discussion..
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FredB
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Posted: Sunday January 29th, 2006 18:37 |
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@La Moore...This is an excellent and redundant question at the same time.
Let me comment on something I mentioned on another thread by Timeline about something to the effect of who should decide who has family or should we move in that direction.
Because all these issues are related. But let me refer to a major study which I partly mentioned in that post by a team of leading international academics of changing patterns of Caribbean family life in the Caribbean and Britian. It is headed by a leading Caribbean member of the British academic establishment, Professor Harry Gouldbourne of Southbank Uni, formely of Warrick University. Part of the research is published in a book entitled 'Caribbean Families in Britain and the Transatlantic World.
Interestingly, Gouldbourne writes that the Caribbean family both back home and here are the vanguard of modernity if not postmodernity compared to all others. He maintains as opposed to tradition and culture and custom our families are characterised more than any with the new dominant western notions of personal choice. He goes even futher and praises the Caribbean as being an epitome of multiculturalims and ethnic diversity and open mindedness and in fact these cultural attitudes are found amongst African-Caribbeans in Britain.
I don't have to say to you that the eminient professor is talking out of his crack. Of course he would see our being the highest numbers of people in multi-racial families eg white women and men as being a good thing because he is married to one. Furthermore like most integrationists he has no commitment to our culture or norms. So his is an conclusion begging an argument.
Of course we know that the Caribbean in reality is far from what he describes and compared to most nations almost defenceless against western globalism, cultural imperialism or other ethnic and racial groups masking behind so called cultural tolerance dominating the African majority.
So as they say whether the glass is half full or empty is contingent not only on perspective but interests and whem men are poking white women generally and subscribe to anything other than their own culture.
Of course once we leave the high theory of Gouldbourne and his ilk behind and look at the real facts of family life in this country in particular we will see the man is a crack head and a highly paid one at that....Or perhaps we exist in some parrallel universe where like the last Star Trek movie the Insurrection where they can create hollograms which give you the impression you are living in the real world...But where I live in London and when I go to work day in and day out mixing with experts and studies in their hundreds on every aspect of our existence we see something completely different. In fact when I travel around the country and deal with our people and our experts in those areas lo and behold we sense the same feeling of being denied this experience of this hollographic world which many live in.
So before I even get into the issues you raised I want to show you more educated and noted people than us are already celebrating the great Caribbean capacity to embrace change and in fact we are the leaders of the pack.
Another basic point and I am not directing this at you far from but just to air my irritation of some of the dumb thinking which characterise or present lack of intellectual development and civilisation as a people. As conservative critic and probably the ugliest black man in America Stanley Crouch said that the same way we must accept as natural the existence of people who are intelligent or even with superior intelligence ,we must accept that there must exist people who are...DUMB..and by extension that groups of people or even races can become DUMB.....
I say that because it is humanly impossible for people not only to experience change but to embrace it. This is fundamental to the evolution of all human societies, who have always been in a process of change, just like human beings. Same way with the growth from childhood to adulthood to old age. It is god given.
There are no societies known to man which have not undergone change. Even a bush society.Cut down the trees a couple miles down the road it will impose some sort of change of response or cultural adaptation. So lets done this insulting argument.
You and i are not like our grandfathers or mothers in important ways while still being similar in potentially fundamental ways. Technology such as the internet makes us different for one. Similar to the insulting argument about cultural seperatism which I wrote about recently and said what kind of foolishness is that. It is not humanly possible nor desirable for people to live hermetically sealed existences. And in fact the people who tend to chat this sh*t eg white people are actually the most seperatist non mulitcultural people in this country and that is a statistical and unquestionable fact. Most whites do not marry outside, they do not have any meaningful association with other groups of people and actually don't want it.
So don't come and preach that sh*t to us because frankly it is intellectually insulting. We are the ones who have adapted and change, not them.
On the issue of cultural change. As any expert or student in organisational or strategic development will tell you. There is organised and led change and there is disorganised or unplanned change. One is intellectually and technically driven and the other is simply a product of events, unplanned, uncoordinated and simply something which happens. Again any dumb student will tell you which form of change is preferable and why.
Let me give you an example of this taken from the Times Higher Education Supplement last week. It talked about a study in the University of Maryland and a similar study in Kent Univeristy here. These are longditudanal studies focusing on the attitudes of the highest educated groups of women in the US and UK and are carried out at 10 year intervals
The first set of studies were done in the height of the women's movement in the US and found most women supportive of the core feminist agenda at the time. Every set of studies carried out by the 1980's and extremely clear from the 1990's to now shows a reverse in the attitudes of women on many of the key issues which were articles of faith in the seventies. Of course the women still hold basic things dearly as would most intelligent men I would add eg the right for equal education, to be employed and paid according to merit, to be free from sexual harrassment at work and abuse at home etc.
But in all key areas related to the family the women both in the US and here have gone back to their fundamental conservtism eg against divorce being made easier, against many of the new type of family structures eg no need for men or gays adopting children etc. These are the women abandoning the 'you can have it all' infantile foolishness and putting famlies and husbands before careers, becoming soccer mums (becaues being white they and their husbands can afford it) and now big into quality of life issues.
Why because some people have the intelligence and education to see through sh*t when they see it, while others need about a decade to learn, experience and observe the dangerous effects of this once popular slogan type rhetoric and realise it had no bearing on reality and sh*t works and works for a reason.
In fact the studies found it was poorer, less educated and disproportionately minority women who still bought into this madness, not those of higher education.
Now regarding the gay issue. What has the pink pound or the purchasing power of essentially white middle-class gays got to do with the price of bread. Or have you again simply taken your intellectual sustanance from the popular media. What is anybody suggesting if a gay person wants to come to your car hire firm that black people should not do business with them?
LeMoore bro leave the white brainwash foolishness behind and that is no personal attack on you. Brother gay people in the black world have to eat and drink and spend their money and have been doing it since time begun in the shops or businesses of predominantly owned by non gay people and in fact non gay people have been spending their money in gay premises from day one. In fact one of the most famous chefs and restaruant owners in my country is gay and flaming and outrageously gay in a funny way and big and tough like raas. But a wonderful brother and has a terrible sense of humour and the best cook on the island. So what are you talking about....He has got rich off hetreosexuals for years..
So again this shows how we pick up white people's propaganda and then internalise it and diseminate it. My book shelves are packed with the works of James Baldwin. So his estate has been earning of the likes of me from day one. People do not reject Baldwin's books because his gay they buy them because he was brilliant.
So what is your argument..... ?
If you are suggesting we should then market especially for gays like that all gay cruise to the Caribbean that suddenly met iron resistance from particular islands and would not let them land in their countries, they are absolutely correct. Money is money, but fundmental principles are sacred and we are not whores not matter how poor our nations are. The argument that the Caribbean is not a gay haven or going to allow itself to be marketted in that way or expose our peoples to these organised white sex fests was spot on.
Not that we have hatred for homosexuals or never knew of them before whites...No our cultural standards and white sexual behaviour, especially when they are whites with money in a poor country do not mix. Our region is not Hedonism in Jamaica and because people pay money think they can come into our territory for f**k fests and expose our people to this alien culture.
Let me conclude by outlining two laws and universal principles of organisation. One is called a collective action problem and can exist in a group of no more than two people where while claiming to share the same interests, one has ulterior interests which undermines the capacity to achieve the formally stated goals or objectives. The larger the group eg from 2-4, from 4-44, from 440 etc the more that collective action problem mulitplies and I can even demonstrate it by mathematical formula as it is pretty scientifically precise.
When you have a community such as ours which is so porous and open to all kinds of unmanaged influences and changes the collective action problem can become so significant that the ability to achieve fundamental goals which is critical for the survival or development of the group is undermined.
Think I am lying. Well here is the test..Show me one example of organised black gays in this country ever standing up for black people in political conflicts with whites or white gays in particular? Don't waste your time investigating....
So on that level already we have a fifth column within our midst. Hence one basic collective action problem and if you think it ends there study the different factions within the gay community eg male gays who hate women and lesbians in particular, so call femi doms and all kinds of stuff.
I won't even talk about coconuts and a particular group within the black middle classs and I can go on and on highlighting the different factional interests which exist within our communities all influenced heavily and uncritically by white western thinking.
The second organisational law and a term very popular in military sciences is called unity of command. What seperates a group of disorganised, fragmented indviduals or units or a potentially organisational implode and a highly effective unit or fighting machine is a clear unity of command and a central and fundamental value system.
Some people will say well society is already f**ked up or our community is and the inclusion of new groups or changes is all par for the course. I say those people are idiots and need to stay out of serious discussions. Because no fool like that will ever have the responsiblity of leading jack. So they can talk what they want.
The art and science of leadership is to reduce collective action problems not to increase them in ways which threaten basic unity of command or to institutionalise another factional interest which we know based on consistent and factual observation are not going in our directions and has a history of acting like a Trjoan horse for our adversaries.
Like political security work anything which threatens the fundamentals of your charter or organisation you are on it like a rash. You would be sacked on the spot if you had rank and allowed a set of internal collective action problems or specific individuals to run wild which threatned the fundamental and agreed order to take place on your watch. And you should expect to be sacked and disgraced because you have failed to carry out your basic and sworn duty.
Same principle my friend. You see I have always said this and I am not being arrogant or presumptious but based on facts. To have an intellectual discussion is one thing. But to understand how that discussion impacts on our organisations, community or nation in real serious terms in quite another.
Peace.
FB
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Maat
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Posted: Sunday January 29th, 2006 19:32 |
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I don't see much point. Why do we need to be addressing our sexuality like that? The only difference I see is their choice in sexual partner and of course if they act the way the opposite sex acts. The people we are talking to now could be gay or lesbians...and?? Does that mean that all other experiences and knowledge they bring to discussions is invalid? I don't think so. If the discussion is political then we have the forum for that. I'm not really interested but hey if people want to go there so be it.
I recall reading in Salvation of a time where those amongst us who were gay were equal to those who weren't. It was accepted. Why should their choice make them any less of a person? If one of your children or family member were to disclose that they were gay would you reject them? I couldn't do that and of course I would want to know where or how they made the choice they did but I would have to accept it.
......what is there to actually talk about
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BlackMatta
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Posted: Sunday January 29th, 2006 19:35 |
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Last edited on Sunday March 5th, 2006 14:38 by
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Happiness
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Posted: Sunday January 29th, 2006 19:40 |
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@ Black Matta -- Maat gave her opinion on that! Wasn't it clear??!!
@ Maat - Hey there! Happy New Year to you!!! Hope all is well at work and at play!
Quick question: what is the reference to "salvation" that you made in your post?
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Posted: Sunday January 29th, 2006 19:45 |
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Gay folk are not a 20th/21st century phenomena they have been around from time,statistically they probably comprise-conservatively-10% of our population@JB said "
JB know you will not take umbridge if your brother corrects you a tad. That figure came from the famous Kinsey studies done in the late sixties if my memory is correct and carried out on essentially white middle America.
These are not figures representing the world population which would suggest homosexuality in its frequency is consistent across ethnic or racial groups which we know as a fact is not. Simple biology will tell you that a whole range of genetic phenomonon is not consistent. Melanin being a simple example. We all have it but in different concentration...and a whole heap of medical conditions which are caused by different biochemstry cross culturally.
So we need to be careful of gay propaganda in how they have used data pertaining to essentially America and attempt to generalise it to the world. Sure the Chinese and large population centres on the planet would have plenty to say about people applying US data to them.
By the way girl you have been on form on this thread some of the humour is side-splitting.
FB
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BlackMatta
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Posted: Sunday January 29th, 2006 20:00 |
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Last edited on Sunday March 5th, 2006 14:37 by
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Posted: Sunday January 29th, 2006 20:02 |
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Proffessor B
Interesting perspective. If i can summarise your post into the key areas and then raise a few issues.
Now regarding the gay issue. What has the pink pound or the purchasing power of essentially white middle-class gays got to do with the price of bread. Or have you again simply taken your intellectual sustanance from the popular media. What is anybody suggesting if a gay person wants to come to your car hire firm that black people should not do business with them?
LeMoore bro leave the white brainwash foolishness behind and that is no personal attack on you. Brother gay people in the black world have to eat and drink and spend their money and have been doing it since time begun in the shops or businesses of predominantly owned by non gay people and in fact non gay people have been spending their money in gay premises from day one. In fact one of the most famous chefs and restaruant owners in my country is gay and flaming and outrageously gay in a funny way and big and tough like raas. But a wonderful brother and has a terrible sense of humour and the best cook on the island. So what are you talking about....He has got rich off hetreosexuals for years..
If you are suggesting we should then market especially for gays like that all gay cruise to the Caribbean that suddenly met iron resistance from particular islands and would not let them land in their countries, they are absolutely correct. Money is money, but fundmental principles are sacred and we are not whores not matter how poor our nations are.
So what is your argument.....?
Gonna have to keep this short Freddie as i gotta dash and im away for a week now so wont be able to reply to you until then.
I think mainly my point is a question of, what is the most effective way to deal with the system?
You posed the question about "what has the pink pound got to do with anything" and "should we do business with gays" etc. I think on some examples the bigger picture may come into play. It may not be a case of whether we should do business with them, but more will they do business with us and put in simple terms, how far will they want to go to close your business down. Didnt we see an example of this from the Peter Thatchell saga.
Now as these guys become more prominent and significant in powerful positions within the media and our government, could that not make it all the more complex for the so called 'politically incorrect' or unpolitically correct (whichever speech is correct )
Lets look directly at this example concerned. BN decides to not include a Gay/Lesbian section however still continues to publish homophobic material (Even if you dont think it is, Gays will tell you some of the threads and opinions here are homophobic ). Although im sure BNs survival will not boil down to Gay acceptance or not, has its commercial potential increased or decreased by staging such a move?. This is bearing in mind that half the cats who work within media and advertising are gay.
My personal view is we should sit somewhere in the middle of all this, where as you say we do not 'whore' ourselves and compromise any of our traditions which could be destructive.
Last edited on Friday February 3rd, 2006 18:07 by Le Moor
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Happiness
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Posted: Sunday January 29th, 2006 20:03 |
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BlackMatta wrote: Happiness wrote: @ Black Matta -- Maat gave her opinion on that! Wasn't it clear??!!
Re-read it. I take it she is saying that sexuality should only be discussed as a sub-context of other issues should gay or lesbian poster wish to do so and therefore does NOT require a separate forum?
Well, to me she said "I dont see much point"...viz-a-viz to have a seperate gay zone. So that to me was her answer - anyway, I am sure Maat can clarify for herself.
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Posted: Sunday January 29th, 2006 20:08 |
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Last edited on Sunday March 5th, 2006 14:35 by
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jett Black
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Posted: Sunday January 29th, 2006 20:10 |
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Yes FB, I take your point about "stats" not being applied across the board,this is something I will take on board the next time I am thinking of spewing one.
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Posted: Sunday January 29th, 2006 20:43 |
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BlackMatta wrote: Maat
Do you think it warrants a special forum. Interested to know your take on that?
No. The things they may have to discuss are things that anyone in a relationship i.e. emotionally, socially, etc will want to discuss. The only difference I see relating to gays and lesbians in society is in terms of the law.
People will always have a prejudice against each other for some reason or another and as another has said, there are many more important things we as a family need to be talking about such as building not dividing.
If the intimate parts of sexuality in general want to be discussed I don't think this is the place for that. Whatever you do in your bed good for you it's not my business.
@Happiness: Happy New Year to you too sis. Great to see you . Salvation: Black People and love is a book by Bell Hooks. Definitely recommend it
P.S. I made the jump
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LadyDay
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Posted: Sunday January 29th, 2006 22:07 |
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we are just gonna get into i want one i want one isms
to suggest that gay and lesbians by choosing alternative lifestyles means that they need a seperate forum section exclusive to them and others discussing whatever. So therefore to balance it out there would need to be a relationship forum so non homo etc can be discussed.
The African moral code did not falter when europeans became so liberal they went against the religions they proclaim to be supposed leaders off
plus is it neccessary to discuss private stuff here.
BNV would change and many long standing posters i believe would leave.
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Posted: Monday January 30th, 2006 12:46 |
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I think I would be handing in my Notice if such zones were created on this forum. I assess this site from work, and I wouldn't like anyone to think I'm checking out a Gay/Lesbian website. Once such zones are included, I would say goodbye. We can determine our future, I don't think everything the society or the Government has to offer is always good.
Last edited on Monday January 30th, 2006 12:47 by Saint
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Posted: Monday January 30th, 2006 13:27 |
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@LadyDay/Saint...
Hey stop making the opposition feel good .
Nobody aint going anywhere and no need for that kind of talk. Making people feel as if the oppositon has actually got any substance.
First, thing and it is simple democratic principles or those of any society or civilisation of a decent standard. Nobody but nobody can force, intimidate, abuse or threaten black people or any people I may add to get their way.
This is more than about gay sections and it is undermining the intelligence or integrity of Blacknet leadership or whoever is going to make the decision that they can be forced by anything other than the weight of reason. And if they can which I doubt very very much other members cannot or will not.
People do not comply or respond to people simply on the basis of race, or colour or gender or sexuality or how good or attractive you look. Not intelligent or serious people. So let's knock that on the head. Certain groups of women can call me and others mysoginist until their throats are dry, won't make me blink.....
What we are moved by is the weight of the argument presented and its merits and on that basis if you read all the threads not only here, but elsewhere on the issue of homosexuality and how it has been introduced both directly and indirectly to see....they have no argument of substance.
Study Kunjufu's arguments on various threads..can you see or find any evidence that he is impressed or swayed by what has been presented by so far. The issue is not what an individual's personal stance is on any matter. It is the quality of what is presented. Because failure to do justice to a well considered position no matter what an individual's initial stance must be treated justly unless one is prepared to damage their integrity and stature.
I suspect from long experience that the only people if anyone who will be leaving are those who come to us with one and one agenda alone, usually on a suicide mission as they have no real commitment to anything outside of their specific agenda.
But apart from that nobody aint going anywhere and I would not be surprised even those who are leading this charge..Why because they probably like it too much here to sink their own boat....
Peace.
FB
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Posted: Monday January 30th, 2006 13:42 |
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BlackMatta wrote: (Where is our general philosophy forum!).
hmmm. Actually a good idea. Now I'm torn....... gay/lesbian forum vs. a philosophy forum... I'm actually more into philosophy but I'm feeling too altruistic to put it before a gay and lesbian forum.
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Posted: Monday January 30th, 2006 13:47 |
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I think Rusengo made a good suggestion when he suggested a gay and lesbian forum.
The number of replies alone should reveal that homosexuality is a "hot" topic here.
It is surely interesting how "unimportant" homosexuality supposedly is in our community, yet people have such strong opinions about it....
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Posted: Monday January 30th, 2006 13:58 |
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@Timeline..Come on sis put up a better and more convincing argument than that. People have strong feelings about grown men or school teachers having sex with kids...Does that suggest blah blah blah...
People have extremely strong feelings about something being imposed on them eg the institutionalised recoginition of something which their cultures deal with in other ways than the standard white western way...
Seems like you are working on behalf of those who are against the motion so to speak....Russengo. He is a heterosexual agent planted to make gays look bad. You can't be serious to use that individual to support something serious. The man who is attempting to square African Burundi culture and roots with the Stonewall gay movement in Califorina. Okey doke....
It was California wasn't it, can never remember the exact state...
Peace.
FB
Last edited on Monday January 30th, 2006 14:23 by FredB
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Posted: Monday January 30th, 2006 14:20 |
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FredB wrote: @Timeline..Come on sis put up a better and more convincing argument than that. People have strong feelings about grown men or school teachers having sex with kids...Does that suggest blah blah blah...
Please....you write dissertations on homosexuality here and you wouldn't enjoy a homosexual forum? I bet you would contribute more than anyone else.
People have extremely strong feelings about something being imposed on them eg the institutionalised recoginition of something which their cultures deal with in other ways than the standard white western way...
Forgive me....I'm just trying to find ways to curb my own disgust in the unbelievable ignorance and intolerance here when dealing with homosexuality.....reminds me of the Salem Witch Trial. I thought Rusengo's idea was a good one because it would promote an open dialogue instead of a combative one BETWEEN those sympathetic towards the lives of bisexuals and gays. *shrugs*
FB
Last edited on Monday January 30th, 2006 14:22 by
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FredB
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Posted: Monday January 30th, 2006 14:30 |
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@Timeline said
"Please....you write dissertations on homosexuality here and you wouldn't enjoy a homosexual forum? I bet you would contribute more than anyone else.
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Well tell the truth I write lots on things I know about and have studied or teach..It's an occupational hazard and writing comes very easy to me...Wouldn't call it a disertation though . But then some of us actually spend a lot of effort understanding things of potential importance and some don't and would not have much to say other than general uniformed opinion.
Sis on the real. You are not helping yourself with all this homophobia and intolerance etc not at all. Basic rules of power. If people have the numbers or force with them you do not endear yourself by calling them names...
Anyway let me get back to my proper dissertation writing so to speak.
Peace.
FB
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Backatya
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Posted: Monday January 30th, 2006 15:29 |
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Kunjufu
Personally, I wouldn't even be putting the question forward in the first place. The notion is not one for consideration in my book.
A gay/lesbian zone on an African site boasting an African centred ethos?......WT*
The world has truly gone mad.
Respect
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FredB
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Posted: Monday January 30th, 2006 17:22 |
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@All I want to bring something to your attention which I think has direct relevence to this whole debate and the integrity and motives of some of its prime movers, namely Timeline.
Mods hope I am not being out of order, but I think the matters are direclty related. I contacted my wife at work and sent her a modified version of a thread entitled beware of the Enemy Within or something similar. I removed my name and the name of Kunjufu who my wife would recognise and have some bias towards....
The person who started the thread was alerting us to white people who were cutting and pasting parts of a list of people's post and taking them out of context, if not manufacturing to obviously to make Blacknet look bad or racist or whatever games they think they can play.
While all the other people who responded to the thread either dismisse it out of hand, or raised issues about who these white folks are and what sites was the info on. Timeline's response was clearly a tacit agreement with these white folks that in effect this site is promotiing racism or whatever.
In fact my wife thought Timeline was a white woman backing another white person. So my point is if an individual is going to directly or indirectly support an action which is clearly caused to harm Blacknet as an institution and go as far as to name some of its most respected moderators eg Kunjufu, Backataya, Ladyday I think and agree with that action and the only person to do so.
Then I think we are wasting our time having this discussion and proves my long time point, radical feminists and gays 95 percent of the time will unite with the devil against African people. So on the one hand Timeline is trying to convince us on the other she is giving suppor to our clear enemies.
I say no more, because for me this debate is done and she showed her hand and ended the matter for me or where she stands in regards to our people and this institution called Blacknet.
Sorry to take your time.
FB
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Monday January 30th, 2006 22:14 |
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Forum: i think this debate has now run its natural course, with no fresh thoughts on this request originally made by Ruesengo, and then taken up by Timeline.....
I created this this thread, initially because Timeline attempted to hijack another thread regarding the naming of the parent & child zone, with her own agenda to force the creation of the Gay & lesbian Zone... I therefore created this Thread to allow Timeline to see the strength of feeling regarding her suggestion.. rather than curtail her poor attempt to push her mantra here yet again....
I deliberately Avoided commenting before now, because I also did not want to be accused of influencing or swaying the debate either way.....
So the outcome of this debate, appears to be a resounding no, to Timelines idea, I thank all those who contributed, the responses were fantastic..and as I expected there wasn't really a credible argument raised as to why we should adopt this idea...
Timeline suggested that such a zone would be beneficial BECAUSE, it in her mind it would 'trump ignorance', it would also 'validate homosexual' relationships and allow 'DL homosexuals' to come out so to speak... However there wasn't really a credible arguement put forward that explained why this could not also be achieved within the existing framework of BNV.
The arguement on this issue, is NOT that this cannot be done, but rather the attempts thus far from Timeline and Ruesengo, have been very poor and unimagnative in trying to get their point across, I would also add that they consistently fail to back up or qualify their attempts, and instead retreat to the shield of victimhood....when on the back foot.. so i fail to see what would be different if i somehow decided to start a Gay and Lesbian Zone..
If the purpose of the any new Zone is to Engage, broaden or inform....Then i have not seen or read one credible reason how a new Gay and Lesbian Zone would also add to the forum, or that it is a demand that needs our focus...
It appears the sole argument for creating a Gay and Lesbian Zone is purely to ring fence, cut ourselves off from and Ghettoise the Gay voice... This goes against the Ethos of Blacknet Village, it contradicts the basis on why we set up new Zones... Therefore on this line alone I see no earthly argument to push forward this proposal...
So now that we've had a FREE and OPEN debate on the subject and the idea roundly assessed as being a BAD idea.. I firmly EXPECT Timeline and Ruesengo to RESPECT the majority decision on this issue..not attempt reintroduce this again for the forseeable future....
Thread closed...
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